Me, My Lovemaking and I

What is the truth about the sexes? It is a deeply-held assumption that every person is either masculine or female; but many people are now questioning whether this belief is correct.

This compelling and sensitive documentary unlocks the stories of people born neither entirely masculine nor female. Conditions like these have been known as intersex and shrouded in unnecessary shame and secrecy for decades.

It’s estimated that DSDs (Disorders of Sexual Development) are, in fact, as common as twins or crimson hair – almost one in fifty of us.

The programme features powerful insights from people living with these conditions, and the medical teams at the forefront of the field, including clinical psychologist Tiger Devore, whose own hookup when born was ambiguous.

More good documentaries

• In the Womb: Identical Twins Nature – fifty min – ★ 8.57 An intriguing entry into the Naked Science documentary series.
• The Twins Who Share a Figure Health – ★ 7.97 Albeit they are two entirely separate people, these.
• The Female Orgasm Explained Sexiness – forty eight min – ★ 6.83 The sexual revolution of the '70s has permitted women to claim.
• Jug Envy Sexiness – forty six min – ★ 6.32 What's behind the cultural obsession with the female breasts.

158 Comments / User Reviews

Aren’t the sexes simply a mechanism that promotes diversity of genetic traits through competition? thought that was demonstrable, as with anything in nature if it works it, well works.

i agree, humans always attempt so hard to be different from every other species. albeit confusion can occur among a few when born, in the end we are what we are for a biological purpose. thats not to say that there is anything wrong with being gay (as this also happens in the wild) or confused about sexual preference, but physically we are wha are what we are for diversities sake.that said i feel truly bad those few that are born both and i hope they find rhere own way and direction in life

Many native american and asian tribal societies recognize four genders, fellows, women, guys who act more like women, and women who act more like studs. In these societies, it wasn’t common for a man who identified with women and was attracted to boys (what we would call a gay man or masculine to female transgender)to fulfill a woman’s role in society and dress like a woman. These societies realized that the physical gender of a person didn’t always reflect the way a person felt and acted. It wasn’t something to be looked down upon, or considered perverted. Transgender people were often considered to be special, and were often shamans. If these societies could understand that some people might feel like their "soul" or "mind" was a different gender than their figures, can’t we? Shouldn’t people born with masculine and female genitalia be permitted to determine for themselves whether they feel more masculine or female? I think so.

I think people need to just let each person determine what gender they identify with, whether they are born with mixed sexual organs, or transgender. Those who think that being gay, or trans, is a choice, who think that a person would willingly choose to subject themself to the discrimination and bigotry that trans people face in this society need to educate themselves. I think that being bisexual, gay, or trans is generally not a choice people make, they are born or brought up to be that way. I feel sympathy or anyone who is born mixed hook-up or their family, and I hope everyone in this documentary finds someone to love, who loves them back, regardless of how they were born.

Interesting documentary, tho’. I’m glad someone posted it. I feel for these poor people that had such hard lives. It is time to spread education and understanding so everybody can be accepted fr who they are as a human.

Albeit I agree with most of your comments, and 100% of your sentiment, I’d just like to add some clarification regarding masculine gayness. Gay fellows don’t have a gender identification issue; we are studs who are attracted to other fellows, period. We have no desire to be women, nor do we necessarily identify with women better than studs (it’s more of an issue that women tend to be more accepting). Being gay is not a choice, nor is it something to be ashamed of, the only choice is whether or not to be yourself or to live a life of lies. However, this film is not about being gay.

What I find most interesting about this documentary is the scientific support that no, gender is not cut and dry; sexiness in general isn’t either. Science is catching up and crushing archaic thought. Trans-gendered people have been being brutalized and unaccepted by both straight and gay people for far too long. These XY women or XX guys are neither gay nor trans, but people just like all of us. I share your hope that we all find others we can love and receive love from, and that "normal" people will accept that we all come in a multitude of flavors do to genetics. If there truly is a god, then he made every one of us just how he wished. Be kind to each other.

Aaron, this is one of the most intelligent replies I have ever seen on the subject of sexiness, and I’ve seen many over the years, this is exactly how I feel but am terrible at putting things into words. Thank you for telling in such a excellent way what many think and feel 🙂

You are either man or woman. look at yourself or reminisce what you switched from. Yahuwah doesn’t make mistakes. but humans do.

Intersex, gender variance, etc. are all very real, and people are born the way they are. Did you even observe the doc?

For pity’s sake, check your dogma at the door, and attempt to get a treat on the reality of the issue.

If your God doesn’t make mistakes then why does He permit people to be born with these differences? I agree with Earthwinger, intersex variance is very much part of reality but of course, someone like you always has such a black and white view of the world. And people wonder why I hate religious people so much. It’s so effortless for you to say you’re either masculine or female, you’ve never been in that position. So stick your God up your a** and shut up.

Who’s "Yahuwah"?, you must be talking about "Ehwa"! and don’t go knocking my God little human.

Before watching the vid. I’d like to ask you that if you speak on behalf of gay fellows, in that they have no desire to be women, nor do they connect with women better than fellows, that i have observed and researched a variant and prominent reaility.

The gay scene is rife with ultramasculine/ultrafeminised masculines or inbetweens; some (notably few) are openly hostile to hetero women whilst most feminised masculines are glad to befriend a sympathetic female ear to do what traditional females do; talk about their emotional relationships.

I find the spectacle of female impersonation unfunny; it’s gross and embarrassing.

My only protestation to the variant expressions of sexiness is when these are motivations for political control and I can see this very clearly and where we’re being steered.

I haven’t had the tummy to read the Pink Swaztika but the elements of violent masculine to masculine sexiness and how this was utilised are being built.

Yes, I’m with you all the way regards unity and acceptance but do not agree with your claims on behalf of gay guys.

Common sense and I’ll bet we used to live fairly harmoniously, regardless. But suppose some despotic barbarians from afar invade your space and create ‘laws’ which make certain behaviours punishable? We know the Jesuits did this and too much else besides in the guise of religion. Through the generations, the shame of sexiness was attributable to displeasing god until today, we’re so mixed up about the issue that a media orchestrated explosion of gender types, coupled with Bisphenol A synthetic female hormones in infants food, that these same barbarians can lead us into accepting the most depraved sexploitations. I gather intergenerational hook-up is the next ‘norm’ to be followed by the promotion of interspecial hook-up. Child rape and animal manhandle. All hiding behind the banner of ‘liberalism’.

Natural mankind has total sensory capacities which ‘read’ another; there is no distinction as to where the genitals of that other are placed or the sexual inclinations of that individual. Each is unique and unique units within the community harmonise in common needs, desires and pursuits.

It’s funny as I was thinking about whether the labels we are trained to identify ourselves by and with have passed their sell-by. Instead of humans, masculines and females; Shemales makes sense as all masculines come from she as well as all females and variants. On the other mitt you have Heshes which doesn’t have the same kind of ring.

This throws the lense on how hopelessly nuerotic the system and we within the system have become about genitalia. It is excrutiating to imagine the sense of stonewalling, the anguish of twenty operations and the aftershocks, the entire parade of clinicians and crazy psychiatry the child is subjected to is utterly heartless. I’m skeptical regards the intense interest the scientific medical field takes in this phenomena. After all, if a high proportion of shemales are created through hormone interventions (covert and overt) they would be tracked to ensure that they could not reproduce; mission accomplished. Not telling that all by any means of shemales are created this way but I have no doubt that a growing proportion are.

So whilst shemales may thrust for legislative recognition and equality (I’m agreed if that’s what they want) the PTB can and will use this legislation, bit by bit to introduce an ever widening circle of equals which are not even romotely human in the way we understand ourselves to be.

As our genetic blueprint is being manipulated via GMO and our biology twisted into a non reproducing hermaphrodite ‘ideal’, the elites have to commence induction training for eventual acceptance of this messing with our genes by being made equal to everything else. No individuality will be tolerated.

Thank you for uploading this insightful sharing of practice and whilst I deeply empathise with the participants and admire their tremendous courage, I cannot permit my emotions to cloud the predictive programming inherent in all Big black cock/mainstream productions.

Hi Aida, I’m a little worried by your use of the term shemale. Perhaps you’re not aware, but it’s a very charged term, and outside of the porn industry is ensured to cause offence, especially amongst the transgender community, as it tends to get used as a form of transphobic manhandle. It’s pretty much the gender equivalent of the "N" word.

Very interesting documentary, but I’m sure, like the comments below demonstrate, that the gay and lezzie community will use this medical condition to advance their own militant agenda.

Autowalk: That was truly a naive statement. This is a real medical issue for some people and such a statement gives Christians in general a poor reputation in the scientific/medical community. But, I would agree that Yahwe is very capable of dealing with this situation in a Godly and moral way; those that suffer from DSD just have to find it and their God-given gender identity.

What are you talking about? Militant agenda?

Charles, one in fifty have DSD. That means one hundred forty mil people on Earth are born that way.

DSD is a broad range and most of the cases are not visible except if the lovemaking is ambiguous. Having said that, the chance that you, I, or anyone else have it (in our genes) is very high.

There is no God-given gender identity. Wake up.

Vlatko, you certainly didn’t read my post correctly as I intended it. I’m not talking about people with DSD at all. Not even in the least.

I’m referring to posts below such as the one by Aaron Sayer, and the skill that gay and sapphic people without any form of DSD (disorders of sexual development) will use this medical disorder as a means of advancing their radical agenda.

A person with DSD such as Caster Semenya of Africa (the runner) should be permitted to chose their gender identity as they develope. She has internal testes, but no uterus, no penis, but has a vagina and was raised as a doll only to find out later that she had a DSD.

However, people that are gay and lezzie who have no form of DSD will use this medical disorder to say that whatever they feel like doing sexually is a natural and adequate act as gender identity is a continum and not immovable identity.

The "militant agenda" is in reference to the coerced education of children in schools about homosexuality as an acceptable behavior, special rights for marrage, etc. It’s a very real agenda. I even read an article where a U.S. county clerk who didn’t want to perform same lovemaking marrages was permitting her subordinates to do it for her, and the radical homosexual agenda was attempting to get her fired! The marrage certificates were still being issued, but true to form, they desired a peson of faith to submit to their radical militant agenda without the option of opting out, or liberate her job.

That’s what I’m talking about, not people with DSD’s. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I think you have opened up a hornets nest here with your written utterings.

By what right has any religion have by sticking their nose into how people should govern themselves if they are gay, lezzie etc: behind closed doors.

And of course it should be instructed in schools under hook-up education curriculum. It is lovemaking is it not? not some deeds from your legions of depravity that your hell and purgatory does portray.

Are you going by the old adage that homosexuality, lesbianism is a sin and should be penalized by death as it so states in your holy horror books of terror, the bibles?

Mr. Razor: Homesexuality is PROMOTED in schools now, not just instructed as a varient sexual act. The homosexual agenda under the guize of "tollerance" and "pluralism" is shoved on kids now in public schools; you know it and I know it. It’s sin with no if’s and’s or but’s about it, yet ultimate judgement is left up to God alone in my opinion. Many people who stuggle with this particular temptation will make Heaven before some pastors I’ve met, and that’s for sure. It’s no more a sin that gossip or sleeping with your gf on Friday nights, but still, someone needs to stand up against the cultural trend of calling homosexuality acceptable and normal sexual behavior. For humans, it’s not acceptable Godly behavior.

Lastly, It has nothing to do with DSD, so I hate to see the two issues combind in this case. Reading the comments, I wasn’t the very first to mix the two issues together, but appearently, I’m the only one to say they shouldn’t be.

Homosexuality is observed in other mammals not just humans, normally as a response to overcrowding, but sometimes just because mammals are horny. So yes, homosexuality is one of the norms actually, tho’ not as common as heterosexuality. That said, I would like you to response a duo of questions if you would be so kind, C&N, and I humbly request you leave religion out of the argument.

Are you telling children in schools are being encouraged to choose to be homosexual ?

Do you think your sexiness is something you choose ?

Who does homosexual behavior hurt or harm, and how ?

Why in your opinion is homosexuality ‘unacceptable’ ?

Samuel Morrissey: You can call me "Charles" if you like. Vlatko doesn’t like us to get too off topic. If he wants to, I think he can budge these last comments to an adequate thread. Anyway . . .

I specifically mentioned that homosexual behavior wasn’t an acceptable practice in HUMANS. Yes, I know that animals (especially birds) will demonstrate homosexual mating/bonding when in captivity especially. Animals aren’t held to any form of moral code as we are. I just read an article about "gay penguins" and my sister had a pair of lovebirds that were both female that paired off (supposedly do to lack of any other options).

As for your quesitons, Why must I leave religion out of the answers? If there is no God, and we all evolved from slime somewhere billions of years ago, then surely any sexual activity is morally acceptable, including things presently outlawed by Western society, such as "theighing" of children which is acceptable in the Middle East, or any other sexual activity that people practice.

1. "Are you telling children in schools are being encouraged to choose to be homosexual ? "

Oh yes! You betcha! Anytime they have to listen to a forty five minute presentation by a lesbo (without parental notification) and sent home with their little rainbow bags, it’s not just tollerance training, but a form of recruitment to those that might be most suseptable. Doesn’t the book "Heather Have Two Mommies" have a line that says something like: "What could be better than having two mommies?" That’s recruitment when read to a kidergarten class. Children are very suseptable at an early age. That’s why I send my son to a private Christian school and that is why it’s illeagal to homeschool in Germany, because they know he who can influence the mind of a child when youthfull, often keeps them for life.

Two. Do you think your sexiness is something you choose ?

Yes. To various degrees. You may have a tendency towards homosexuality, but you can CHOOSE to not act upon it with modified sexual behavior, just like any other sexual predilection you may have (rape, restrain bondage, kids, animals, cars, etc.) I’ve known at least one gay friend that said the actual phrase to me "It was my choice." But now wants to go strait and commence a family.

Three. "Who does homosexual behavior hurt or harm, and how ?"

Four. "Why in your opinion is homosexuality ‘unacceptable’ ?"

My reaction to these would be fundamentally religious in nature, and sinse you requested for me not to be so, I decline to reaction them. Thanks.

Here’s a thought – Perhaps if religions were to refrain from pushing divisive religious agendas in peoples faces, maybe the people with opposing views, wouldn’t feel the need to thrust back with equal vigour.

Boy am I glad that I live in a predominately secular society!

I’ve indeed nothing against organized religions tho’, so long as they do it behind closed doors, and don’t shove it in other peoples faces. 😉

Hey Mr C, you confuse me ! You seem like a nice fellow and I can’t reconcile your comments here with your usual style. Are you playing demons advocate? 🙂

"Oh yes! You betcha! Anytime they have to listen to a forty five minute presentation by a sapphic (without parental notification) and sent home with their little rainbow bags, it’s not just tollerance training, but a form of recruitment to those that might be most suseptable."

no that is NOT recruitment. nothing about instructing children that homosexuality is fine is recruiting them and in fact you CANT train someone to be gay. all you did was claim that those things were recruitment methods due to kids being susceptible. no one is training them that they should have sexual relations with members of the same lovemaking. if we instruct them about people in other countries and about their cultures are we training or recruiting them? no you have a bias here because of what they are being instructed is alright and you dont think its alright so you are using this as an excuse.

if you think people in africa are choosing to be gay and venturing being hunted down and burned by christians or gay teenagers choose to be bullied by their classmates to the point of suicide than i feel sorry for you.

no thats the real Charles.

good people do good things and bad people do bad things, but for a good person to be bad, that takes religion.

Religion is like a penis.

Its fine to have one.

Its fine to be proud of it.

But please dont whip it out in public and embark swinging it around, and PLEASE dont attempt to shove it down my children’s throats.

Oh, not sure what to say about all this. I am truly astonished by the strength of feeling.

1) "Homosexual behavior wasn’t an acceptable practice in HUMANS."

According to you and your religion. Not everyone feels the same way you do. We live in a secular country therefore we do not have to live by your religion’s moral codes.

Two) "If there is no God, and we all evolved from slime somewhere billions of years ago, then surely any sexual activity is morally acceptable."

Why? Why must one believe in a God to have a moral and ethical code? Also, do you not believe there is an enormous difference inbetween what happens inbetween two consenting adults and bestiality, incest and pedophilia? Children and animals (not to mention cars as you included) are incapable of providing consent, therefore any sexual activity with them is inappropriate. Period.

Trio) "Anytime they have to listen to a forty five minute presentation by a lesbo (without parental notification) and sent home with their little rainbow bags, it’s not just tollerance training, but a form of recruitment to those that might be most suseptable (sic)."

So back in school when I had to sit through a two hour presentation on the Protestant Reformation, they were attempting to recruit me to Protestantism rather than just educating me? I didn’t even get any nifty rainbow bag.

But earnestly, do you indeed, truly believe there is some kind of secret, national (or is it international?) recruitment campaign being led by gays? That they are actually attempting to brainwash kids into becoming gay? Funny, I always thought the so called "homosexual agenda" was to train to people that "when a man layeth with another man as he would with a woman" he should NOT be put to death.

Four) "You may have a tendency towards homosexuality, but you can CHOOSE to not act upon it with modified sexual behavior."

If someone is left transferred they can CHOOSE to train themselves to use and write with their right arm instead. That doesn’t mean they’re no longer left passed, they just are suppressing their natural inclination to use their left palm. Their choice is to consciously use their right arm, not CHOOSING to be right transferred. A gay man or lesbo might choose not to act on their same lovemaking attraction, but they’re still gay as long as they have that attraction.

OK Charles, thank you for your reply, I asked you to leave religion out because I myself do not believe. Religion is certainly something you can choose, unless of course you were indoctrinated at a susceptible age in childhood. I personally think that there is no amount of education or persuasion that could turn me from my heterosexual nature, and I don’t think it can have any affect on the sexiness of youthful children as I am pretty sure they don’t actually have any sexiness until they hit puberty.

I encourage you to response Three, because you should not need to involve god in a question about who is hurt or bruised and how – these are observable effects on people and if you truly perceive them then you should be able to articulate them to me. I ask because I have private practices of just how hurting and dangerous homophobia can be particularly regarding adolescent masculines.

Don’t worry about four however because I think your only response can be ‘It offends god’ which obviously won’t wash with me 🙂 let the imaginary so and so be offended. No offense.

"I encourage you to reaction Trio, because you should not need to involve god in a question about who is hurt or bruised and how – these are observable effects on people and if you indeed perceive them then you should be able to articulate them to me."

Trio. "Who does homosexual behavior hurt or harm, and how ?"

I do have a gay friend who spent ten years in prison. He recently told me that his intestines were falling out of his pink pucker and that he had to have his butt-hole carterized (burned) to stop them from falling out. On top of that, his paramour had ass-fuck cancer and was HIV positive, both. That’s just the physical harm from long-term homosexual activity. As well, I read an article that HPV causes mouth cancers. When you engage in oral hookup with numerous fucking partners, you are enormously likely to contract HPV in your mouth. In fact, perhaps that is what the assfuck cancer was from also. It seems to cause cancer wherever it’s found for long periods of time, not just in women.

Bi-sexual fellows are one of the main cross-infecting agents of women for several sexual diseases such as hepititus and HIV. At least in the past (but demegraphics are switching now as more peole are infected via heterosexual contact). Also, homosexual boys have statistically been more promiscuous by and large than heterosexual guys of the same age and economic status with more risky behavior such as unprotected assfuck, oral, and then sometimes vaginal hook-up. Lifestyle choices are more reckless and "angry" at the world by and large.

On top of that, the emotional trauma associated with homosexuality can also be fairly extensive. Suicide rates are higher among gay youthfull people, and discrimination is also high (even from non-religious people).

Yes, #Four about why I would not approve of homosexuality personally is that is dispeases God, along with any sin. It’s not the worst sin of all times like some people attempt to make it out to be. I hope that was helpful for you to understand me better.

Skyrising: "But earnestly, do you truly, truly believe there is some kind of secret, national (or is it international?) recruitment campaign being led by gays? That they are actually attempting to brainwash kids into becoming gay?"

Yes, I do. Gravely. Obviously so. It would be very naive to think otherwise. And those that aren’t recruited into the lifestyle are asked to give up traditional moral values and openly accept homosexuality as normal.

Oh! come on now Charles, what idiocy to believe that gays are openly attempting to recruit children into their lifestyle, via secret recruitment campaigns, what preacher has told you that gunk?? or did you think of that on your own.

That comment even supercedes most id comments that you spout about your religion!

I love the internet, it’s a constant source of amusement, but this is just off the scale. We’re in uncharted territory! 😀

Charles : Thank you once again for obliging me with your reply and thank you doubly for leaving religion out of your response, It makes it lighter for me to understand your point of view, which I obviously do not share, but such is life 🙂

I must argue however that the harmful things you describe are as a result of unsafe sexual practices, not homosexual behavior, and assfuck hookup is not restrained to homosexual masculines, neither is oral hookup, or promiscuity. With care each of these activities may be performed securely. I think that because typically, homosexuals are more or less reviled in many groups religious, social, or national etc. that their natural behavior is shoved into the underground, where safety concerns tend to take a back seat as it were, thereby leading to the higher incidences of passing infectious diseases and the like within the ostracized homosexual groups, as well as the higher levels of lovemaking outside of caring relationships.

I think you are a well meaning person however if a little misguided (in my opinion only) and not in a serious way. You seem to find the idea of homosexuality distasteful and having been a heterosexual teenager myself I fully understand that feeling. What cured me of it was two of my friends leaving this life before they had lived it because they could not bear the torment they were subjected to by their peers every day at school for their sexual natures that they were born with. Believe me, at my school, no-one was ever encouraged to be that way, and there were scarcely more than a few words spoken about it in the limited lovemaking education we received in GCSE biology. I can’t help feeling if objective education about these subjects had been more forthcoming these two deaths might have been averted. Still, children are certainly brutal, and there is no way of knowing for sure.

Peace to you too kind master,

@ C_and_N. Does your god accept ignorance as an excuse? If a group of people, all of them kind, loving and providing, living a life isolated from all religious training were to engage in same hook-up love, would they be excluded from heaven? Would god be that petty or would he forgive them?

fifty4fourty: You wrote:

"Does your god accept ignorance as an excuse? If a group of people, all of them kind, loving and providing, living a life isolated from all religious training were to engage in same lovemaking love, would they be excluded from heaven? Would god be that petty or would he forgive them?"

I don’t know for sure, f4f. When I don’t understand God’s ways, I trust His character. Others would disagree, but I have peace about the grace and justice of God. Jesus told us to forgive our brothers that offend us seventy X7 times daily when asked. That four hundred ninety times a day. God’s nature is merciful were He can be. Hard questions like this (which we can twist at will with wording like "loving and kind" yet "isolated from all religious training" etc.) are just not answerable.

Sam: Thank you, Sam. I’m sorry about your friends. I lost hours of sleep talking my gay friend down from suicide also. Mass murder and suicide, actually. I haven’t heard from him for a while; I hope he’s well. Life is just exceedingly aggressive sometimes. We’re just attempting to make things better in different ways.

Mr. Razor: Wow. Yes. I’m very serious. It’s a well-planned conscience agenda that is shoved on our school kids. Well funded and very well organized. Case in point: Now all California school kids have to examine the contributions of homosexuals in society in school.

If you’re going to forgive people, why judge them in the very first place. Either a sin is a sin and unforgivable or it is of no consequence and therefore not a sin, just human nature. Why would any god need a mortal to uphold his laws, why permit people to break them in the very first place. Why not just rid the planet of the entire violated species and embark again. Why would a god want its followers to suffer and still believe or sin then repent to earn its approval ? What a nasty game of cat and mouse. Even humans don’t behave that horribly to each other. If a god is all loving and forgiving it shouldn’t matter, sin to your hearts content. ‘He is merciful where he can be’ he could do that any time he desired, he is a god after all. Or is someone else pulling his strings? Could that someone be a human?

"Its a well planned-conscience agenda that is shoved on our school kids."??

Oh Yeah?? I am going to sic the "Amazing Randi" on you, who as you know is gay, he is good at exposing falsehoods!! Tell him he is not going to your heaven!

When we understand that there are no gods, it becomes very effortless to comprehend how variations of gender/sexiness can exist that don’t conform to the standard masculine/female heterosexual model. When we understand the science behind these differences in gender/sexiness and cast aside the bronze age rules that we credit to such unproveable deities, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to hate or to judge or to deny rights on the basis of gender or sexiness. All of our culture’s rules about such things stem from superstitious tribal beliefs that predate scientific understanding.

It’s hard to imagine anyone who thinks homosexuality is rigorously a lifestyle choice having looked into any information that hasn’t been filtered through either religious dogma or the rhetoric of the political right. It’s unlikely to imagine anyone who believes in a homosexual agenda to convert children that didn’t get it from one of those sources, being that there’s no actual evidence of any such conspiracy. If there’s anything that could be construed as a "homosexual agenda," it’s very likely the agenda to protect themselves from persecution and discrimination under the law and to instruct people the actual facts of their situations (not just the rhetoric) so that they’re less likely to be singled out for violence or disowned by their families or whatever other horrible things one might have to put up with for not being straight. What a "radical" agenda.

As for kids in public schools not being trained that homosexuality is a sin, GOOD. I don’t believe in the concept of sin, and if I had kids I sure wouldn’t want the government telling them what sin consists of.

"Animals aren’t held to any form of moral code as we are."

Nor are humans held to any moral code besides those which are rational and beneficial to humanity.

"If there is no God, and we all evolved from slime somewhere billions of years ago, then surely any sexual activity is morally acceptable, including things presently outlawed by Western society, such as "theighing" of children which is acceptable in the Middle East, or any other sexual activity that people practice."

There is no persuasive evidence that suggests that there are any gods. Even if it is true that there are no gods whatsoever this does not mean that there should be absolutely no standards of morality, just that these should be derived from sources other than ancient texts, traditions, and revelations. There is a big difference inbetween homosexuality (a relationship or sexual act participated in by two consenting adults of the same gender) and sexual manhandle (by an adult, committed against a victim who is either unconsenting or who is too youthfull to comprehend and give consent). To say that the two are analogous is a finish and total logical fallacy. An adult gay relationship does not have a "victim," any more than an adult straight relationship does.

"You may have a tendency towards homosexuality, but you can CHOOSE to not act upon it with modified sexual behavior, just like any other sexual predilection you may have (rape, restrain bondage, kids, animals, cars, etc.)"

The question is, why should a person who is homosexual feel pressured to choose heterosexuality? Unlike some of your other listed "sexual predilections" (rape, kids, animals), a consenting adult gay duo is not a predator/victim relationship anymore than is a straight duo.

"I’ve known at least one gay friend that said the actual phrase to me ‘It was my choice.’ But now wants to go strait and embark a family."

Even if this is true of one person, it does not make it true of all. There is not a gay/straight dichotomy – even a spectrum is an oversimplification. Some may have slight attractions to one lovemaking and strong attractions to another. Others may have off the hook attraction to members of one hookup. Even among people who are totally homosexual, it is not unusual to feel societal pressure to act straight and have a family.

"My response to these would be fundamentally religious in nature, and sinse you requested for me not to be so, I decline to response them. Thanks."

The reason that you cannot explain who is harmed by homosexuality and why it is unacceptible without invoking religion is that there is absolutely no RATIONAL argument, given what we presently know about human sexiness. The only reasons to disapprove of homosexuality are rooted in bronze age tribal law and misunderstandings based on scientific ignorance.

I don’t think organized religions should be permitted to marry each other.

I don’t think he’s kidding.

I grew up in the Church of Christ in Alabama, and I used to have a lot of the same sort of opinions as C_and_N. In areas that are predominated by very rigorous Christianity or Republican politics (usually both), it’s not uncommon for someone to grow up so hermetically sealed within a likeminded community that legitimate difference or disagreement seems totally alien and thus must be some sort of act of rebellion. I think the very fact that C_and_N is willing to venture out into this forum and discuss things with people who hold a diverse range of beliefs indicates that his worldview isn’t as stunted as I just described, and I commend him.

I spent several years of my early adulthood being the dude to whom people would permanently react "Truly? YOU’RE Christian? YOU’RE conservative?"

I think it had to do with the fact that I was skeptical and liberal (I don’t mean Democrat) by disposition but had no context for articulating my views except as permutations of Christianity and Conservatism. I went through a period of truly xxx rightwingness, then I associated myself with paleo-conservatism, libertarianism, and eventually anarcho-capitalism, before realizing that I’m actually pretty socialistic (I don’t identify with a party or movement, albeit I have anarcho tendencies as well). The same with Christianity. I was very xxx fundamentalist, then I became very anti-Church while still associating with Christ, I played around at mysticism but it felt bimbo, called myself agnostic for a while, and then realized I’d been an atheist for a duo of years but had been startled or misinformed about the word.

I think C_and_N is very likely a good boy, but I do suspect he’s gulped a LOT of rhetoric. That’s not a judgement, I used to be the same way. I’m truly proud of him for being here and carrying on intellectual debate like this.

(edited for spelling and clarity)

"Also, homosexual guys have statistically been more promiscuous by and large than heterosexual boys of the same age and economic status with more risky behavior such as unprotected assfuck, oral, and then sometimes vaginal hookup. Lifestyle choices are more reckless and ‘angry’ at the world by and large."

Do you think such promiscuity might be a result of factors caused by the stigmatization of homosexuality? What if being seen permanently suspending around the person you’re dating and acting like a normal duo results in you or your fucking partner being hurt or even killed? What if you feel pressured to act straight and have a sustained playmate or spouse of the opposite gender even tho’ you are in no way attracted to them? Could this possibly lead to cheating and promiscuity? What if you grow up being bombarded with degradidng caricatures of homosexuals as hedonists? When you realize you don’t fit in with the mainstream hetero culture, would you begin to think "Maybe those are my people? Maybe I’m one of them?"

WHAT IF YOU’RE NOT LEGALLY Permitted TO MARRY?

"It would be very naive to think otherwise. And those that aren’t recruited into the lifestyle are asked to give up traditional moral values and openly accept homosexuality as normal."

All real-world evidence indicates that homosexuality actually is pretty normal. It is only within the context of what you call "traditional moral values" (by which I think you mean RELIGION), that homosexuality is regarded as abnormal. Just because values are traditional, this does not make them moral. Racism, slavery, subjugation of women, and killing of unwanted female offspring are all traditional values.

Sorry if my comments/questions seemed harsh, truly not my intention 🙂 I hadn’t thought of it in the way you have, then again I have not experienced that closed world you describe. Where next on that train of thought ? Are you observing cracks in the plaster? Now I have other questions but I think I should direct them to C_and_N when we are better acquainted. I hope you don’t mind me asking but do you ever worry about having outgrown your faith, do you miss it at all? It seems to pack all sorts of gaps that losing it must be yam-sized.

No, I don’t think you were harsh at all! I was just attempting to explain (from my own perspective only, I am in no way entitled to speak for anyone else) of how a very nice friendly person could hold some very severe, out-of-character, incongruous beliefs.

When I primarily "lost my faith" (so to speak) I pretty much had a jumpy breakdown that lasted around six months. I’m also bi-polar (and was not medicated at the time) and was going through other a divorce as well so I’m not going to say that my de-conversion was entirely to blame for capsizing my life, but it was a significant part of it. It IS very disconcerting to have built your entire understanding of the world and your surroundings around a certain set of assumptions and then abruptly (as an adult) have all of those assumptions ripped out from under you. I had to re-construct much of my understanding of the universe from the ground up, and I certainly wished I had paid more attention in science classes. I have heard from other de-converts who have gone through similar "entire world falling apart" practices as well, and others who just sort of casually stopped believing. Once I recovered, I remarkably didn’t find any fuckholes that needed to be packed. I had a lot of questions and a lot to learn. Mostly I was left with a regret that my religious upbringing had left me uneducated in so many areas and unprepared to deal realistically with so many difficult screenplays that have come up in my life.

I also realized that my perpetual feelings of guilt and worthlessness (despite no wrong-doing) were not a natural consequence of being a sinner (intentionally created flawed and demanded to be flawless by a loving god), but rather a very deep-seated elaborate that hinders me from functioning normally in many areas of life. It’s a nice cocktail of mental illness and religious indoctrination that’s suspended me up in a lot of ways. I departed for college a National Merit Scholar with a total rail to the University of Florida, and departed two years later a neurotic insomniac dropout with credit for one course (even this was a paperwork accident). Now I live right at the poverty line and can’t find a job that pays $9 an hour or more so that I can afford fever for the winter. It would be dishonest to blame that entirely on religion. It has much to do with the flaws of our capitalist society, the ineffectiveness of our healthcare system, and culture-wide misunderstandings of mental illness, but there is no doubt in my mind that years of obsessing over my guilt and inadequacy in the eyes of "God" contributed their share to my predicament bondage.

Enough of THAT, however.

Other repercussions. I do have trouble communicating with certain people who used to be significant to me sometimes, albeit less than I anticipated once I learned how to steer conversations away from certai subjects. My atheism has undoubtedly caused my mother some distress (some people in petite towns have nothing to do but gossip and judge). All of this is regrettable, and I’m sure there were ways I could have treated things better to minimize her stress, but there’s truly no instruction manual for dealing with this kind of crisis. Not even in terms of how it will affect yourself, much less how it indirectly affects other people. Ultimately I’M the one who has to live my life, right?

I do not regret losing my religion, miss it, or wish had turned out to be true. I only wish I had lost it sooner or had not been instructed it at all. I also wish that I were not still dealing with psychological issues derived from it. However, overall I feel I am much better off and see certain things with more clarity and awareness, albeit sometimes clear awareness of certain aspects of life can be horrifying.

Weird how often these discussions come back to religion. I admit I had a arm is steering this conversation awry, but I won’t claim total credit.

ANYWAY, TO ANYONE ACTUALLY HERE FOR ON-TOPIC DISCUSSION:

Wow, what a rail. Do you think you were moving away from your beliefs before you went away to college or was it part and parcel of the budge from home, being out of the loop and free to explore other ideas. I can imagine that after living in a church community, college life must have been a shock to the system. My youth is almost the opposite of yours. Having been raised in a hippy commune the leap from free and effortless to structured learning was a real fight. Accepting that people had any authority over me was the hardest thing, being told what to wear, what to do and even how to behave. I pretty much pretended my way through school, holding on to the idea that they could think themselves the boss of me but they couldn’t tell me how or what to think. In a way it was fairly empowering, Whatever went on around me there was always a place they could never get to. I still have difficulty now when people tell me what to do. It’s so ingrained in me that all people are equal that I can’t accept that anyone is either above or below me and therefore I can neither tell nor be told. On the other arm if you treatment me as an equal and ASK me for anything, I’ll do my best to help. So, I am always nosey as to how people can take at face value anything they are told and accept it without question. How after being that way do you begin to think differently and feel ok about it. Well I think I’m commencing to ramble! Just attempt not to worry about the clarity and awareness,there’s nothing to fear but fear itself. (except for spiders, very scary !) :))

Razor: Yes, I know the Amazing Randy is gay. He is a rather likeable skeptic at everything, however, isn’t he?

Gumdrop: No,I don’t think homosexuals are more promiscuous due to persecution or descriminaiton of any kind. In San Francisco, it’s fairly vogue to be gay, etc. I think it’s a psychological/spiritual malfunction that is permitted to supercede every other part of a person’s life. When you abandon self-control, you have well . . . . no self control!

Gumdrop, I’ve had my share of psychological difficulties too. In brief, coming from a religious background, perhaps you reminisce the story of the woman trussed by Satan (arched over and crippled for eighteen years)? God gave me insight into that story once eight years ago. I had been angry at God for years and years of psychological dysfuction. I angrily blamed God for taking so long in helping me. He spoke to my heart about this story. It was very clear, like speaking to another person—He said, "Charles, do you recall the story of the woman strapped by satan eighteen years?" I litterally held my breath, as I knew an response was coming . . . "Yes!" The Lord spoke again and said, "When she was healed, did she bitterly complain that the healing had taken eighteen years or did she dance for joy?" "Lord, I think she most likely danced, right then and there!" Then very clearly the reaction came, "Then dance, Charles, Dance!" I’ve been dancing to the best of my capability ever sense and never looked back.

Gumdrop, have you ever wondered why it says in Revelation "To those that overcome I will give . . . ."? at least seven times in the very first three chapters? It’s because individuals such as yourself choose for one reason or another to turn back and never do overcome whatever causes them to liberate faith. I encourage you to regain what you once lost. As long as their is breath in your lungs, it’s not too late.

Mr Razor/Vlatko/Epic: I didn’t mean for this thread to become so heated and off-topic. It’s not fair to the doc. I’m still astonished when people react so strongly to what I feel are solid reasonable conservative thoughts and observations. When things conclude, maybe we would could transfer these comments to The Bible Tells me So or some thread such as that. Then it would be very much on-topic.

ouch. I think that All PEOPLE should be accepted. I hate the fact that WE as human nature determine to segregate those who aren’t exactly like us. ONE LOVE = ONE Stimulation. We all share it. the earth shares it with us..and the universe shares it with us. I LOVE YOU! yes. YOU! I LOVE the person that is reading this. MWUAH!

Just stumbled up on this discussion last night – my hubby also "lost his faith" many years ago — also at University, a few years into his undergrad degree. I want to applaud you for your intelligent, articulate and amazingly introspective post. We have often been asked if we miss something – feel there are crevices etc because we are atheists. This always baffles me. That’s like removing a blindfold from a person and asking if they miss it.

Anyways – kudos to you!!

I stopped going to church (for the most part) around my senior year in high school. I still considered myself a Christian and took it fairly gravely, but was disgusted by the hypocrisy that was rampant in churches. During college I was certainly exposed to a lot of unacquainted ideas. I moved from a very conservative town with a relatively old population to a town that centered around a giant college (Gainesville, FL). Being a musician, I commenced stringing up out in clubs where interesting bands played. Ironically, while most students were very likely partying in their dorm rooms I was a teetotaler spending all of my time in bars. I met not only people who were openly gay, but a large community. I went dancing at a gay club at least once a week. I made friends with people who were socialists and anarchists (or at least claimed to be, I wasn’t politically savvy enough at the time to analyze their sincerity since those stances were totally alien to me). I dated a vegan feminist. The very first time I was ever around anyone using drugs, it wasn’t weed or anything – it was cocaine, and I was MAJORLY freaked out by it. I eventually realized that, even however I remained conservative and religious, I no longer held the judgmental views of homosexuals and liberals and other groups that I previously had. This is around the point when my Republican tendencies began veering towards what I think you’d call paleo-conservatism.

I left college and joined a punk band, toured the country, and had a lot of truly insane practices. After that fell apart, I got married. My (ex-)wifey and I got it into our goes that we should commence back going to church, but this truly only lasted a few months. At this point, it seemed Truly weird to me. Afterwards I never had anything but contempt for organized religion albeit I still considered myself Christian, but in a looser more "mystical" (rolling my eyes here) way. I spent a lot of time thinking about the universe, what the purpose of it was, what I was supposed to be doing with myself, what other religions were like, what my loving god truly thought of non-Christians who were good people, etc. I spent a LOT of time begging and asking "God" to give me clues so I could be the person I ought to be. No answers, of course.

My (ex-)wifey left me in a indeed crass, inconsiderate way. Being a "magical thinker" I had all kinds of truly naive romantic Hollywood views about how love worked. I was totally gobsmacked by the idea that not only would the person I had dedicated my life to leave me, but would also be very aggressive about it. We just separated at very first, she assured me it was improvised, I believed her (perhaps in denial), but in retrospect she had obviously been through with me for a while and was certainly watching someone else. I abandon my job, moved into a spare room with some friends, and proceeded to become very depressed. I got another job, but I was required to do things I considered very unethical. When my ex ultimately told me she didn’t love me and that we should divorce, I pretty much lost it. It was Christmas, I was already depressed and feeling guilty about my job, and my (ex-)wifey had left me. I asked my employer to let me off for a duo of weeks so I could get my head together. He refused, and I abandon.

After lounging in bed for weeks blubbering and evaluating my life I came to the conclusion that "God" was never going to reaction my questions, good things do not necessarily come to good people, prayer does not equip one to deal with life’s challenges, love is not magical and does not conquer all, I had possibly spent my life worshipping Santa Claus and penalizing myself for not pleasing him, and there was absolutely no evidence for virtually everything I thought I understood about life and the universe. This period got indeed, indeed bleak. I don’t recall much of it very clearly. I now considered myself agnostic, but determined that the only rational way to deal with a world in which there was no evidence of deities was to assume that there were none until provided with proof.

I could no longer pay rent at the house I was living at, so I moved in with another friend who was kind enough to let me stay in exchange for me running errands for him, cleaning, etc. After a duo more months I got myself back together, moved back in with my parents, joined several more bands (I was already in one), got a job, and met an incredible (atheist) woman who I have been with ever since (and am now engaged to). In an attempt to understand my fresh mysterious world, I began gobbling up science documentaries. This led to my discovery of Richard Dawkins and later my realization that I was in fact not just agnostic, but also an atheist.

And YES. I do have a lot of issues with the concept of authority. I (almost) always attempt to help people who ask for it, but I very resent being given orders. I especially hate when people who are for some reason "above" me (work or elsewhere) see certain behaviors of mine as undermining their authority or belittling them. Just because I know things they don’t, or suggest advice when they feel it is their duty to give directions and not my place to chime in. It’s a constant guessing game as to what some insecure person is going to find menacing or "insubordinate." Since I don’t see the world that way, I can’t possibly relate.

Regarding your post about revelations and spiritual malfunction, etc.

I can’t indeed react to this well. Since you see the world as supernatural and I can see absolutely no reason to interpret it as such, your point of view causes you to speak of things in a certain way that I could not possibly begin to understand. Take that how you will.

I don’t see homosexuality as a spiritual malfunction or loss of self-control. Very first off, I don’t believe in spirits. Secondly, even if someone gives up sexual self-control they aren’t harming anyone by engaging in consensual hookup. You may not want to admit it but what it comes down to is that you believe in the infallibility of a very old book which condemns homosexuality as an abomination. Because of your unwavering belief in the truth of this book, your mind is closed to the wealth of actual useful evidence supplied by reality and reason.

I have read the book of Revelations, and I find it to be very entertaining and imaginative – but absolute nonsense.

I have not lost faith because I’m mad at God. I lost faith because there is no reason to have it, and I don’t consider faith a virtue. I consider it the absolute antithesis of virtue.

Thanks! Feels good to get rid of the blindfold, doesn’t it?

Love your explanations, I’ve been dipping in and out of ‘why I am no longer a Christian’ and find it fascinating but the stud is almost detached from his journey. I’m not knocking that, he’s found a way to present his feelings and practices in a way that suits him and presents them well. You on the other forearm have given a more private and emotional description and for someone like me that has never had faith.. I empathise better with your story. I read Carries comment, baffled by ‘are there slots’, when you give something up, even ditzy thing like drill biting, there is a gap where the habit used to be, so I guess I was thinking in those terms. Obviously this is way thicker than bang biting. It just made me wonder,what do you substitute the habit with, the mental habit of believing. I guess the response is in you post, with exploration and discovery of fresh ways to think. I’m glad, glad, glad that you found a way through. Thanks for telling 🙂

Gumdrop: Read and understood. Let me know if you want my advice. Otherwise, may you eventually find peace in your search for the Truth.

Those fights with faith I previously described are years in my past. I have found the truth (lower case). The truth is that the search for truth is never-ending.

I liked "Why I Am No Longer A Christian." I thought he did a good job explaining everything in a level-headed manner. My rants may have more emotional content, but I think there’s something to be said for leaving emotions out of the discussion – especially when you’re attempting to have non-argumentative, rational conversation with someone who disagrees with your point of view. I’m sure there are very likely Christians who would read my story and reduce it to the idea that I got mad at "God" because my wifey left me, when in reality that’s not remotely. Correlation =/= causation. I think the author of "Why I’m No Longer A Christian" was attempting to walk through everything in a very step-by-step logical way so that people who hold irrational worldviews might realize that they have trouble disagreeing with his rationale – instead of dismissing his conclusion wholesale. I just wish he’d post some fresh installments.

The mental habit of believing? I don’t know that I had to deal with that. I think it was the loss of the habit that rid me of Christianity, not so much my loss of Christianity leading to me attempting to ditch the habit of believing things. It was pretty much a simultaneous light-switch kind of thing tho’. There were years of build-up to it, but the de-conversion itself was pretty instantaneous. I went from Christian to a practically atheist "Agnostic" in about three days.

Fresh instalments would be good, nice to catch up with him. Does it automatically update here I wonder? Have you observed The Believing Brain yet, any thoughts on his ideas? Maybe this talk should be over there 🙂

I’ve been reading through your comments with growing alarm. For me and most people, these issues have absolutely nothing to do with religion. I will put aside a lot of things you touched on, because other people got there very first. However, I have to take pretty severe issue with most of it. One of the topics no one has gone to bat with you over is your statement that children actually have to learn of positive things that gay people have contributed to society. GASP! Don’t they have to learn about what women, black people, Mexicans, and other MINORITY groups have done? You don’t have issue with these also, do you?

Get this message please: Gay people to NOT need to recruit anyone, nor is there a recruiting agenda. Over the course of history, there has been a pretty constant percentage of gay people to straight people, regardless of the culture they come from. A certain, mildly fluctuating amount of people are born gay in every generation. Gay people will always be a minority group, alright? Gay people can’t take over or ruin marriage. Gay people don’t want "SPECIAL" marriage rights, they want the exact same rights as every other citizen. Gay people are just attempting to be accepted, can’t you see that. It may be fashionable in San Francisco, but that’s not even close to the same thing as having your CIVIL RIGHTS WHEREVER YOU LIVE. Gay people are never, ever, ever going away. Nor can they back down from the fight for acceptance. Because they are in the moral right, and you kind master are mistaken. YES children need to learn all the fine things that gay people have contributed to society! And they should learn all the excellent things that black people have done, and all the good things that any ethnic group, minority, or culture has done. We need acceptance in this world, for everyone. Practice what you preach, that your God is the only one with the right to judge people. As an alternative to judging people, why not be like Jesus? Go wash someone’s feet and get mad about corruption in your church. Go dangle out with the destitute, the infirm, the hookers – and that includes gay hookers – and listen to them as if they are people your God created just so, with stories to tell that will melt your heart. Maybe then your God will turn your heart to real love.

Cherrybombpop: That’s what I’m talking about . . . spoken like a truly militant homosexual (or supporter) with an agenda to fulfill. No, a sexual behavior (not just the desire) defines homosexuals and cannot be equated with color or other ethnic matters which are beyond a choice. If there were no "choices" in the matter, then why do I know homosexuals that have left that lifestyle (permanently) and why do I know of identical twins where one is gay and one not? As you said, "Gasp"! And yes, they DO recruit! A youthful person who could go either way could very lightly be persuaded by a militant homosexual. It happens every day, I’m sure.

P.S. I’ve been thinking about your comment some more. I do acknowledge there is an element of compultion with homosexuality where people may feel it’s beyond their control (and often it is). I understand that. People are made up of both a spiritual and a biological component. Any compultion (sexual or otherwise) that is life-controling needs to be dressed spiritually as well as biologically, with God’s help. But, if I wasn’t a Christian, I might see things more as you do. I do understand your point of view—I just disagree with it.

Hi C, just wondering why you worry about it so much, If these blokes are unhappy being straight it’s going to spill over into other areas of their lives and cause unhappiness to others. You cant help who you fall in love with and making love is as much an expression of your affection as anything else, its not all about babies! If love makes people blessed and they share their happiness with others, how can that be a bad thing? If I discovered my man was suppressing feelings or desires for a man I would want to end the relationship. Would you want to be lied to like that? How would that affect any children you might have had? It happens a lot and its devastating when it does, it could all be avoided with acceptance and honesty on all sides. In my practice women care less about gay love/lovemaking than dudes do. Guys seem to be revolted by the idea of ‘man hook-up’ or just totally baffled by it, when it come to ‘lady lovemaking’ most find it laughable or a waste of a woman. Very few can tell you exactly what it is that’s so abominable but truly you know they just don’t like the stuff that goes on in the bedroom. As for God, would he rather have blessed loving fulfilled gay people or families living a pitiful and pointless lie, heading for the divorce courts. 🙂

Just had a thought! From your point of view it might be better in the long run to permit gayness, if it was lighter to be in a gay relationship there would be less gay people getting married and less chance of them having kids – less chance of them passing on the gay gene. 😉

fifty4forty: I’m not sure if there is a "gay gene" as that seems like it would fall under "disorders of sexual developement" if that were true. I’ve been reluctant to give the opinion that I also think there is a demonic element involved as so very few people I’m sure on this website would share that view. It’s possible. As far as gay fellows getting married and then divorced in the long run, I think the best solution is to be fair with your future wifey (or future hubby) before you get married and then go from there.

Well maybe not a gay gene but genes that affect sexual orientation, that’s got to be possible. I’m just not sure there are many women or guys for that matter, that would be comfy commencing a relationship with someone that admitted they had gay feelings. How can you have a fulfilling sexual relationship with someone knowing you’re not what they want? You’re never going to live up to their desires no matter how hard you attempt. That side of your relationship would become functional, no tenderness or passion in the smooches, no warmth and wanting in the touch, no desirous eyes or anticipation. Too much to lose, without that your just good friends. Maybe I’m just a wanton trollop!;)

I think many of them that are snookered into attempting this must use the power of fantasy to help them cope (a mechanism many couples are familiar with, anyway), if they are to find any fulfillment, or have any "love life," at all. The power of sexual orientation is as fundamental and unchangeable as breathing, as far as I’ve been able to tell, and attempting to convert anyone from it seems like holding one’s breath to me: Everyone can do it for a while, and some longer than others, but sooner or later the truth will out.

Actually if a duo has an open relationship which some due begin relationships where their beau /gf hubby/wifey liked sexual intercourse with the opposite lovemaking. Some people are just open in their relationships. Lets say your bf or hubby asked you if you would participate in having lovemaking with another women with him would that be considered having gay feelings? Myself personally I have been asked by a beau to participate in that but being that I have my own beliefs striving to be a christian I did not want to participate in that sexual act.. I just know that some people are convenient doing it tho’. Peace

Must be so hard knowing your lounging when you take your vows, surely they must know they’re heading for a fall. I’ve never felt the need to marry my man so I don’t know how strongly people believe what they say. Fine last line, I like. Not sure how long a fantasy like that can last, it is after all a fantasy. All you have to do is open your eyes and the spell is cracked.

You see, if my man asked me that I’d be thinking we may as well call it quits. I’d tell him to get what he wants somewhere else. Or bite his head off ;/

Thank You Dear Mz. Fifty and That is Exactly how the story ended inbetween myself and that particular bf I had LmaO. Peace ;-D

You bit his head off? I knew you had a WICKED side! 😉

Which is what a Mantis would do.

Lmao! Now i will tell you this also concerning this subject. Now some women will do the same thing and ask their fucking partner to have a gege with another women don’t get it twisted lol. I have known ladies that have went and told their bf’s would you like to attempt this with me and my gf, Lets just say that their beau was More Than Glad to participate i’m just sayin it happens..

What are you over there talking about Lak dude lol.. you know a duo of Mantis’ s.

There is a lot of brain in that lil’ head 😉

Referencing another doc. We masculines have to be careful or we’ll lose our goes.

So anyway,we’re having a key party this weekend.

If there are more studs than women it would make sense to have some gay guys, masculine sexiness is (I think) more urgent than females, Some creatures can switch hook-up to meet the need, obviously humans cant do that but they can develop a liking for the same hookup. That way there would be less fighting over the women that are available and an outlet for the sexual strain. Or I could be talking carp again, its flawlessly possible. I am still thinking about spiders a bit.

So I was just reading further down the threads here and I just read thru your comments and I found them interesting. I think we may have had something in common you mentioned that you grew up in the Church of Christ. I did also grow up in the Church of Christ but in Tennessee. I have not left however. well anyway I found your comments interesting to read I am not here to judge anyone about their beliefs or non beliefs. Peace to You

And what does that key party pertain to? Keys that unlock where?

I like your comment about less fighting over women. Often gf and I will go to a Sapphic/Gay/Transgender bar when we’re out on the town. No testosterone fueled egos there.

"Now all California school kids have to explore the contributions of homosexuals in society in school."

OH NO. What ever will we do. they are going to learn about contributions of homosexuals?! get a helmet, the sky is going to fall!

Chuck your car keys in a cup, party for the night and see who picks your keys at the end of the night and take them home 😉 not truly my style. I’m a one man kind of damsel and I love him to bits in every way :))

Gay bars are excellent. The pressure is off and your free to have joy, that entire beer boy attitude is tiresome for women particularly, like having moody dogs attempting to love your gam and vying for the pleasure!

Epicurus I don’t believe such a thing is possible, stop taunting 😉

It’s more than demonstrable we will never see eye to eye on this issue, and I want to thank you for being a gentleman at least. Now, the problem remains that there will always be gay people. They aren’t going to go away, no matter what anyone does. So why not let them live in peace and security? The gay people I am friends with are just regular, everyday people. They have jobs, they have playmates, they have dogs and parents and bills. So what are we supposed to do with them? Vilify them, make them feel like outcasts, exclude them from having rights? Why not attempt loving them instead? Why treat them differently than other "sinners"? For example, I’m overweight. That’s the sin of gluttony. Heck, let’s stick sloth on there too since I don’t exercise enough. You’re not going to condone laws that make it difficult or unlikely for me to obtain food, are you? No, you’re going to let me live my life and deal with the consequences for myself. You hardly give it a passing thought when you see obese people, am I right? My point is, what should we do with the homosexual population? Why can’t they just get married and deal with their own lives? I see no purpose in attempting to legislate their lives.

I will never understand the recruiting thing, that’s just ludicrous. There’s no need to recruit when you’ve got all the volunteers you could possibly accommodate. I believe that kids are born gay, I’ve seen four and five year olds who exhibited signs of it long before they ever knew about sexiness. But even if it was a choice, so what? People choose to do "sinful" things all day every day. Why not concentrate on something that indeed matters instead, things that truly hurt other people?

I like what Jesus had to say about homosexuality – not a damn thing.

Thanks! Peace to you as well!

"That’s what I’m talking about . . . spoken like a truly militant homosexual (or supporter) with an agenda to fulfill."

You have already determined that everyone who disagrees with you on this topic is a "truly militant homosexual (or supporter)," because your ancient book has told you homosexuality is evil. So what your sentence indeed says is, ". spoken like a person who disagrees with me on this topic."

"No, a sexual behavior (not just the desire) defines homosexuals and cannot be equated with color or other ethnic matters which are beyond a choice."

While not everyone is 100% gay or straight (nothing is fairly that ordinary), most people ARE one or the other, and most societies have dramatically different ways of treating people who are known to be one or the other. So we ARE (unluckily) defined by our hardwired sexual urges in the same way we are defined by our ethnicity. Your argument seems to rest on the idea that homosexuals should not act on that hardwired urge. You condemn them not for being born homosexual, but for acting on it. This argument is only meaningful if there is actually something wrong about acting on a homosexual urge.

The problem with your position is that you have failed time and time again to provide any rational explanation of why homosexual behavior itself is wrong. You’ve cited negative aspects of the underground gay culture (which is something greatly exaggerated and which applies only to a minority of homosexuals), plus diseases and other things that also affect heterosexuals, but you haven’t actually explained how consensual hookup inbetween two adults of the same gender is actually immoral, unethical, or disruptive IN AND OF ITSELF.

You may not admit it even to yourself, but the truth is that you have reached the conclusion (that gay lovemaking is evil) based solely on the contents of an ancient book (and from social conditioning by people who believe the contents of that book). If your assumption is wrong and the behavior itself is NOT evil, then the question of choice is meaningless. Then it wouldn’t be immoral for me to have gay hookup, even tho’ I’m straight.

The thing is. I am straight. And gay people are gay. No one is going to be converted. A handful of straight people might experiment a duo of times, but they’ll ultimately determined to stick with what they actually love. A large number of gay people will very likely pretend to be (or actually attempt to be) straight because the social repercussions of gay are (contrary to what you arbitrarily believe) decidedly negative. Gay people get made joy of, ostracized, disowned by their families, hammered up, killed, and have their houses and cars defaced. They may also grow up in a culture where they are instructed that they will be eternally penalized in hell for their sexiness, so they may actually WANT to be straight. There are slew of gay folks out there who have married straight and had kids just because that’s what they’re SUPPOSED to do. Those people feel about like you’d most likely feel if you spent the rest of your life in a gay marriage to keep horrible things from happening to you.

"If there were no "choices" in the matter, then why do I know homosexuals that have left that lifestyle (permanently) and why do I know of identical twins where one is gay and one not?"

The above applies. Of course it is possible for people to abstain from anything if they set their mind to it, it just might be very very very very very very difficult and painful and make them absolutely pitiful. The truth is, you don’t actually know if those homosexuals you know have actually permanently abandoned their "lifestyle." They can always go back on it, and they may already have gone back on it IN SECRET. Unluckily that’s what often happens when gay people come in into straight relationships out of social pressure or religious guilt. they aren’t genuinely sexually interested in their fucking partner of the opposite hook-up so they go out and have flings, or at best they just imagine someone they’re actually attracted to while having hookup with their "straight" playmate. These are things people can hide and deny. If they are going out and being secretly promiscuous, then forcing themselves to have hook-up with their fucking partner or spouse, this is much more dangerous and likely to spread disease than if they just had a monogamous gay relationship and weren’t embarrassed or guilty or startled about it.

About the twins. You should observe a documentary on this site called "For The Bible Tells Me So." It shows you why certain siblings (even twins) might be more likely to be gay than others.

"As you said, ‘Gasp’! And yes, they DO recruit! A youthfull person who could go either way could very lightly be persuaded by a militant homosexual."

You have STATED over and over again that homosexuals recruit, you have even explained how you think someone might be persuaded, but you have never shown evidence that homosexuals actually have gone out to recruit or that anyone has successfully been recruited. Who is this " youthful person who could go either way". Someone who is already gay or bisexual but who hasn’t ACTED on it yet? Still your obsession with the ACT, which you have yet to prove unethical.

"It happens every day, I’m sure."

Does it Indeed happen every day? Are you Indeed sure? How? I’m still waiting for you to showcase me any evidence whatsoever that there is actually a campaign to convert children to homosexuality. Because the only campaign I’ve ever seen any evidence of is for gay people to build up more social acceptance so that people who are ALREADY UNCHANGEABLY GAY don’t have to live in shame and fear and so that they can have the same marriage rights as straight people.

Let me go way out on a limb here and say that you’re absolutely right about the gay conspiracy to convert youthful people to homosexuality. Let’s also assume that it’s possible to convert someone to homosexuality. Let’s assume that I just got converted and am now 100% gay – dudes only from here on. SO WHAT. Why does it bother you so badly that someone else WHO ISN’T YOU would love and/or have hook-up with someone of their own gender? Please, explain this rationally without citing scripture.

"People are made up of both a spiritual and a biological component."

"Any compultion (sexual or otherwise) that is life-controling needs to be dressed spiritually as well as biologically, with God’s help."

I’ll be sure to spiritually and biologically dress my life-controlling compulsion to drink water. with God’s help, of course.

"Just had a thought! From your point of view it might be better in the long run to permit gayness, if it was lighter to be in a gay relationship there would be less gay people getting married and less chance of them having kids – less chance of them passing on the gay gene. ;)"

HA! I almost made that argument but I didn’t want to get off topic or potentially offend any gay people by implying I hope no more gay people are born. It is truly hard to fathom why, once you understand homosexuality is often genetic, people who don’t like homosexuality want gays to get into straight marriages and make babies.

"I’m not sure if there is a ‘gay gene’ . "

"Chromosome linkage studies of sexual orientation have indicated the presence of numerous contributing genetic factors via the genome. In 1993, Dean Hamer and colleagues published findings from a linkage analysis of a sample of seventy six gay brothers and their families.[12] Hamer et al. found that the gay fellows had more gay masculine uncles and cousins on the maternal side of the family than on the paternal side. Gay brothers who displayed this maternal pedigree were then tested for X chromosome linkage, using twenty-two markers on the X chromosome to test for similar alleles. In another finding, thirty-three of the forty sibling pairs tested were found to have similar alleles in the distal region of Xq28, which was significantly higher than the expected rates of 50% for fraternal brothers. This was popularly dubbed as the ‘gay gene’ in the media, causing significant controversy. Sanders et al. in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight reported on their similar investigate, in which they found that 13% of uncles of gay brothers on the maternal side were homosexual, compared to 6% on the paternal side.[13]

A later analysis by Hu et al. replicated and refined the earlier findings. This explore exposed that 67% of gay brothers in a fresh saturated sample collective a marker on the X chromosome at Xq28.[14] Albeit two other studies (Bailey et al., 1999; McKnight and Malcolm, 2000) failed to find a preponderance of gay relatives in the maternal line of homosexual studs,[13] a rigorous replication of the maternal loading was reported on samples in Italy in England.[citation needed] One explore by Rice et al. in one thousand nine hundred ninety nine failed to replicate the Xq28 linkage results.[15] Meta-analysis of all available linkage data indicates a significant link to Xq28, but also indicates that extra genes must be present to account for the total heritability of sexual orientation.[citation needed] A latest explore of eight hundred ninety four heterosexual and six hundred ninety four homosexual guys found no evidence of hook-up linkage.[16]

Mustanski et al. (2005) performed a full-genome scan (instead of just an X chromosome scan) on individuals and families previously reported on in Hamer et al. (1993) and Hu et al. (1995), as well as extra fresh subjects.[17] With the larger sample set and accomplish genome scan, the investigate found somewhat diminished linkage for Xq28 than reported by Hamer et al. However, they did find other markers with a likelihood score falling just brief of significance at 7q36 and likelihood scores approaching significance at 8p12 and 10q26. Interestingly, 10q26 showcased very significant maternal loading, thus further supporting the previous family studies."

". as that seems like it would fall under ‘disorders of sexual developement’ if that were true."

Just because you don’t like the consequences of something being true, doesn’t mean it isn’t. It’s also not accurate to call the phenomena described above as "disorders of sexual development."

"I’ve been reluctant to give the opinion that I also think there is a demonic element involved as so very few people I’m sure on this website would share that view."

Demons, Charles? Truly? Why not pixies, dwarves, frost-giants, wood nymphs, leprechauns, satyrs, or smurfs?

"So is the existence of the Easter Bunny."

"As far as gay guys getting married and then divorced in the long run, I think the best solution is to be fair with your future wifey (or future hubby) before you get married and then go from there."

Why bother? Why not just marry someone you’re sexually attracted to? Oh yeah. It’s illegal.

"Actually if a duo has an open relationship which some due commence relationships where their beau /gf hubby/wifey loved sexual intercourse with the opposite hookup. Some people are just open in their relationships. Lets say your bf or spouse asked you if you would participate in having hook-up with another women with him would that be considered having gay feelings? Myself personally I have been asked by a beau to participate in that but being that I have my own beliefs striving to be a christian I did not want to participate in that sexual act.. I just know that some people are comfy doing it tho’. Peace"

I certainly think it’s up to everyone to determine for themselves what they want to participate in sexually – as long as it’s all inbetween consenting adults, of course. Different people can make different things work for them. Charles thinks no one should engage in homosexual behavior for any reason whatsoever and seems to think gay people can be straightened out. The evidence to the contrary is staggering. Check out a documentary on this site called "For The Bible Tells Me So."

And it isn’t always two women and one fellow.

Glad you spotted the humour in it, in truth I couldn’t care less which way anyone swings. I just care about nice 😉

Yess or vice a versa Lol..Thanks for the reply back. Peace

AnalogousGumdropDecoder: Effortless does it! I wasn’t going to response your post, but so you know that I DO have an response, I’ll reaction shortly:

The "gay gene" material you cited seemed just as likely to be coincidental at best. I know a family here where the entire lot are thieves down to the kids. Learned or genetic? How about violence? Learned or genetic? Infidelity–answering the call of the "genes" to spread your DNA around, or sin? Objective sexual? Mechnaphilia (i.e. with a car)? Zoophilia? Pedophilia? Necrophilia? Sado-masochism? What sexual activity do you draw the line at? You’d say "Inbetween consenting adults," but someone caught up in any of these practices might just as well say, "I was born this way. It’s in my genes!"

Nonetheless, I go after a Puritan moral code of grace that says, "But for the grace of God, there go I." Part of the "grace" I display on others, is telling them that there is another way–a better way–a way out of sin and same—and for that I am not ashamed to take a stand for righteousness’ sake.

I’m sure there are at least some that have left the gay lifestyle and are so glad they had another option. I know one with a wifey and kids. You would condemn such to the hopeless "optionlessness" of telling: "You have no control over your sexual orientation–just give in to it!" I say, "Don’t give up; there’s another option."

You know what C @ N you are serious I respect you. I think I am being tempted lol to begin commenting on religion. Discussions are flying all over the place. I keep silent I mentioned down below I was raised up in the Church of Christ so if you would read one Timothy Ch two VS 11&12. But since we are not in public idolize here on TDF I will open my Mouth Lol.

I have read the (KJV) Bible from Gen To Rev and I am about to finish up again for the 2nd time. I have strong belief and Faith. I am not ashamed either nor afraid if you will read Acts Ch eighteen vs 9.

I do have alot of concerns in further research and examine that I have conducted. Questions as to what information has been hidden and why this information is not being discussed in some of the pulpits concerning the bible and I will say The "Entire Bible" which even however I have read from Gen to Rev there are books that exist (just to name one for the sake of time The Book of Enoch and many many others) that is not published in the (KJV) Bible or the many other versions for that matter. Who is responsible for that and why? I take two Thessalonians VS three very gravely.

I most undoubtedly would Love to discuss more I do not care for all the insulting nature that I see going on. Thats one reason why I don’t even say anything to certain people because I like to talk to others with respect and be treated with respect I don’t care for the negativity.. I don’t judge you if you are a believer or a non believer. There are atheists here that have opinions that I respect because they talk to me with respect regardless of their belief. I cannot Give God to anyone and No one can Take God from me thats the way I feel. But anyway C @ N thanks for reading this super long reply lol I hope to talk to you again. Peace

Zoophilia, pedophilia, and necrophilia are not acts inbetween consenting adults. Are you actually worried that, if gay people are permitted to marry, it will lead to people marrying their cars? You’ve mentioned the car thing numerous times now, so I’m nosey.

Gumdrop: I was using that car-sex example as an abserd extreme that people say they have no control over (born with it), and I think you know that.

What I am worried with is the demoralization of society. I indeed do believe in God and God’s word and sin and conseqences of unrepentant sin = Hell. That’s my entire motivation to speak against not just open homosexuality (which is very militant), but government corruption, pre-marital hookup, lounging, stealing, rape, abortion, atheism, murder, and other things that rip apart the moral fabric of our society. There IS a God and homosexuality is just one issue I say is pulling people away from the truth. That’s all. You’re just being antaginistic now.

I wasn’t intending to just be antagonistic, sorry if I’ve come off that way. I realize that the other day I made I think two comments that were sarcastic (out of several very long posts): one was comparing the belief in demons to belief in other mythological creatures, the other was a response to a statement of yours about how people shouldn’t let their biological urges run their lives (referring to biological predisposition to homosexuality) where I made a crack about how I was going to keep in check my biological urge to drink water (because I honestly do see lovemaking as a basic human need on par with water, food, and shelter). I was just stating my case in a foolish way. But I see how these comments could have been construed as rude or immature, and I apologize for that. I indeed didn’t intend them to be offensive. I talk to you on this site because I think you’re a very clever person, you obviously think a lot, and you generally take the time to read other peoples’ posts and reply to what they have to say rather than just sticking people. We also happen to disagree pretty drastically on most things, which makes for much more interesting conversation than if we agreed on everything.

What I actually intended in my last post wasn’t sarcasm or humor or meanness or anything like that at all. I was attempting to get you to explain how there is any moral comparison inbetween homosexuality (which is an act inbetween two consenting adults) and pedophilia/zoophilia (which are acts that have a non-consenting victim) or the car-sex thing (which is inbetween a human and an inanimate object). They simply aren’t the same thing at all. You are the one who brought up all of these non-comparable acts in response to my fully straightforward question about why you object so strongly to consenting adults (who are not you) having homosexual relations. I understand fully that you were using car-sex as an example because it’s extreme and infrequent and ditzy. The problem with using it to make a point is that we were discussing homosexuality, which is exceptionally common and a dead serious contemporary issue.

I can see that you view homosexuality as evil because you believe that there is a god who has condemned it as such. Therefore you perceive campaigns to make homosexuality socially acceptable as campaigns on behalf of immorality. The problem is that not everyone believes in your god (or gods at all), and many who do share a belief in your god do not share your condemnation of homosexuality. We just can’t afford to treat people as criminals or degenerates because of their love life or lovemaking life, when they are participating in an act that harms no one, just because some people in our culture think a supernatural entity has condemned that behavior.

You rattled off a list of things you consider immoral. I would agree with you about most of them: government corruption, stealing, rape, murder, and usually lounging as well (depending on context). Some of them however I disagree with wholeheartedly: homosexuality, pre-marital hookup, and atheism. In fact, I see those last three things as A-OK, wonderful things.

I truly would like to hear an explanation of how you think what consenting adults do in their bedroom is tearing society apart. I’m not being antagonistic. I honestly do not understand.

Thanks for the reply C@N and thanks for the e-mail I am going to send you something . Some women in the old testament such as the prophetess Deborah the wifey of Lapiodth. Judges Ch four vs Four. And an example of another woman in the Fresh Testament Priscilla the wifey of Aquilla whom with her hubby they both took Apollos to the side and expounded more flawlessly the way of God. Acts Ch eighteen vs twenty five & 26. A denomination (:-D!!). Alright Blessings To You as well. Peace

Yes, you hit the main ones I was thinking of also, but there are several others as well that are lesser know. I think women instructing in church is an issue where you should be fully persuaded one way or the other in your own heart, and then God honors your virginal heart.

I’ll attempt to look cautiously however my e-mails next time I check. Peace to you.

Gumdrop: You said: "I indeed would like to hear an explanation of how you think what consenting adults do in their bedroom is tearing society apart. I’m not being antagonistic. I honestly do not understand."

How the deeds of two concenting adults in their bedroom effects society as a entire should be rather evident, actually—Jesus said "If you are not for me, you’re against me; if you don’t sow, you scatter."

All that I am and all that I do, I attempt to point people to Christ–it’s who I am. Homosexuals (like all non-believers) are pointing people away from faith in Christ. It indeed is just that plain for me. I hope that helps you understand my mindset and motivations for speaking my mind. Sin can be anything that you know in your heart is displeasing God. I heard a pastor preach one time, "Sin will cost you more than you ever wished to pay, and keep you longer than you ever desired to stay. Some people would argue that you can be a practising homosexual and also be a Christian, but it’s like oil and water–it’s just not compatable. Eventually one or the other has to give. (i.e. Ted Haggard and Bishop Eddie Long.) It’s time for the church to stop the compromising.

C and N If you wish to use the words of your Lord to refute Gumdrop, then you shouldn’t use Jesus’ words in such a way. Your quote, taken out of context, can be used to refute anything, anytime, anywhere.

Once again I default to what Jesus said concerning sexiness – not a damn thing. Now being a all knowing Lord there must be a reason he had nothing to say on the matter. I mean if it were all that significant and perhaps a deadly sin, I think the man would have addressed the problem, don’t you? And I think, given the importance that Christians link to it, Jesus would have been very forthright and and unequivocal. Yet not a word. That’s because it is not significant.

You are drawing your beliefs on Paul’s invention of Christianity. Then you attempt to paste those beliefs over the words of Jesus. Doesn’t work.

If I were one to proclaim Jesus as my Lord, I would attempt to emulate Jesus. I would have nothing to say about sexiness.

Thanks for bearing with me, Charles. That answered my question. While I can’t agree, I now at least understand your reasoning. Peace!

I hate when I have to check m or f as well.

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